Hi all,

The British Government is currently expecting to join the EU without our nations consent.

Whether you are Pro Euro or Euro Sceptic, We the British people deserve our say in what happens!!

Please sign the following petition.

EU Referendum Petition

These people in government are Civil Servants!! That means they serve us the People.

It is about time we Stand up and make it known that we will not be steered in such a drastic direction without first our consent.

Thank you for your attention.

NeoN HaZe.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by Neon Haze]

We already are in the EU if you didn't know, have been for a while now which is either a good or bad thing depending on whom you ask.

The Constitution is, sorry was designed to unify the EU more, strengthening and creating new bonds in several areas.

Do I personally wish a more intergrated EU, hmmm, not really, not without a hell of a lot of reform.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by UK Wizard]

We are currently in the EU, but we are not an EU State and that is what is planned if we were to sign up to a EU constitution.

This is the direction the British Govt are attempting to take us and by stealth.

When will people realise that New Labour couldn't give a monkeys about what it's people think, and will only do what is best for their own interests.

I guarantee the current cabinet will end up in even more senior EU positions, should they move the UK into a United States of Europe.

I for one will not stand by and just let voter apathy destroy any hope of retaining sovereignty.

Remember the EU was only ever meant to be a trade pact, and a so called EU constitution is as far away from that as you could get.

If ever there was a time to stand up and be counted, it is now.

All the best,

NeoN HaZe.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by Neon Haze]

It may seem like imperialism is on the rise again in Europe The norwegian government tried to make us join twice, but we voted no (with a _minimal_ margin) both times.

What worries me is all the latest members of the EU. Some rather poor countries from eastern europe and bordering on asia is joining and the rich countries have to pay for it. This might seem like a fair deal, but only as long as these new countries contribute with something. So far they are contributing with goods and labourforce at a fraction of the price of the rich countries, which again leads to braindrain in these countries and lots of other economic complications.

However, it's the constitution that bothers me most. We don't need an european empire! There is no need for another arms race. It was supposed to be about trade not war!

Don't get me wrong, I'm sceptical of the European Union and what it does and don't really want the Union to take a step beyond the form of an alliance and into a more solid state, I'd like to see greater cooperation but not greater intergration.

The EU has much potential in many areas, and even a sceptic like me can see what the EU could achieve if only it suffered some reform.

I would love to see Switzerland and Norway (sorry DrLeary) join as I think it would shift the power balance away from old Europe to a more up to date power balance.



[edit on 13-12-2006 by UK Wizard]

Wrong. The EU Constitution in its currently given form does not aim to "federalize" the EU members.



Wrong. There always was a political dimension in the european integration process. That is actually where its historic roots lie. I cannot understand why people, especially Brit members on this board, keep referring to the EU as an economic alliance.

Even the first instance, the Coal and Steel community, already instrinsically incorporated a system of checks and balances of the six members to influence each other.

Hehe, that's okay Norway is already implementing all of the EU directives long before most EU contries do. It's stranger, but we really wants to be "the good guys" in international politics, and that's where I agree with you that it might be a good thing for the EU (not nessesarily Norway) if we joined. Maybe countries like Norway can bring back the focus on diplomacy in international affairs as opposed to the current (US-led) policy of shoot first and ask questions later

I do believe that the tide is starting to turn in the UK as well. People are sick of the surveilance cameras and the 1984 mentality of the government and are starting to dismantle the new anti-terror laws. You should all watch the documentary The Truth About The European Union. It has ministers openly admitting that they vote on dozens of propositions each day without ever having read them and not knowing at all what they are aboot. They have people telling them what to vote. They basically have a list of numbers followed by YES or NO. That's politics for yah!

- As Lonestar24 correctly pointed out this is quite wrong.

The UK has been a member of the EEC/EU for over 30yrs.....& was attempting to join (ie aligning the British economy etc to Europe's) for almost 20yrs before that.



- We already do have 'our say'.

We have free and fair elections & can choose the British Government to represent us in the EU at all levels.

This applies not only in terms of the PM but also all the Ministerial appointments, which impacts on all the various 'Council(s) of Ministers'.

Each new UK Gov also sends it's own appointments to the EU Commission, replacing the old (unless they prefer not to, which is very rare).

We also get to directly elect MEPs to the EU Parliament.



- What for?

The so-called 'EU constitution' is not happening.

Why try & fight a war that isn't happening?



- Actually the people elected to Government are not 'Civil Servants' they are duly & democratically elected officials.



- True.

.....but, as all those on the right-wing anti-EU end of the political spectrum ought to be aware, in the UK our elected officials are not elected to be mere 'delegates' of the people.

Read your Burke & get with your conservative program......you're starting to sound like a 'lefty'!



- Well as this so-called 'EU constitution' isn't happening anymore I think it's pretty clear you haven't been following the news.

Perhaps you'd like to bring yourself up to date on current affairs a little further?



- Was that what this was really all about, hmmmm?

Do you fancy warning us about the perils of decimalisation next?



- That might even be true of some - tho I doubt it very much it applies to the majority here in the UK - but this has nothing to do with the EU.

It's also worth making the distinction between 'speed cameras' and CCTV cameras.
Many many people are wholly in favour of correctly sited and visible speed cameras - which have been policies of this current UK Gov, not something imposed by the EU - even if none of us like getting a ticket from them if we speed.

CCTV surveillance cameras in towns & cities are going up across the UK at the request of local communities & thanks to initiatives and policy guidance from the UK Gov, not the EU.



- That might sound bad.....but if you think about it seriously it is not unusual or surprising.

Why shouldn't an elected politician take advice?
Surely they should?

Are they expected to be expert in every matter that crosses their desk?
That's plainly absurd.

It's also true that a large part of the decision making process is one of mere formality & 'process'
(if a specific decision must be taken and noted & it can only apply in 'one direction', given the existing legal framework within which it sits, it is perfectly normal & understandably that there may be lists to be signed off simply as a 'yes' or a 'no').



- Well that's right, it's a complex world within which we live & an institution involving the unique agreed cooperation of 25/27 sovereign nations is undoubtedly going to throw up what appears to be the odd anomaly & odd circumstance.

But a simplistic & superficial 'take' on the matter is of little use to anyone.

Whatever the unusual or even relatively minor instances of flaws that may appear that doesn't make the whole endeavour worthless or totally flawed.



- It's all about 'Thatcher's children' & an appalling ignorance (wholly deliberately) spread in the UK.

That's why you hear such utter rubbish about
1) how 'we' in the UK supposedly thought we were getting a 'trade only' union
(from those who clearly know little or nothing of the events (like EFTA membership) prior to the UK's membership of EEC....or for that matter of the political advances made within and thanks to the EEC/EU/Europe)
or
2) that the EEC/EU was 'originally only about trade'
(which even a cursory examination of the facts shows this is utterly wrong & inaccurate).

The contemporary facts are there to prove this nonsense utterly wrong.
That's how come those telling this fabricated version of events now usually rely on flatly lying to people that Ted Heath (the then tory PM) hid those awkward facts and misled the people about the nature of the EEC/EU......

.....& they also just keep on lying about this when it cames to the public referendum campaign and vote of 1975!
(a separate & later event conducted under the next British PM Harold Wilson).

The thing is I was there, I was interested in this & I recall quite clearly how many at the time thought this would be Europe's chance to put our destructive past behind us & act together as a form of 'United States of Europe' to challenge the dominance of & be the equal to the USA & the old Soviet Union.
There were several books about this & TV shows, before the referendum, debating this very point.

To claim the political dimension of closer European integration & cooperation was absent back then is a complete lie......& one really ought to be wondering about the motives of those who continue to teach and spread this complete lie.

But with Thatcherism & that whole little-englander neo-nationalism ideal taking over the British tory party it was almost inevitable that they'd try & re-write history
(even their own.....& the whole long saga of the UK's entry into the EEC/EU).

Little wonder so many too young to know otherwise simply believe it all to be true.

Thatcher & Co. worked hard to build up old enmities to try & create what amounts to a siege mentality in sections of the British public when it comes to Europe.

It was purely political.
The idea of a cooperative EEC/EU is anathema to Thatcherite ideals of competition before all else.....particularly if it means a Europe that might one day challenge US dominance.
'Thatcherism' & 'Reaganomics' were rather closely aligned.....again, & rather ironically, politically as well as economically.
(this is also where a lot of the old nonsense of Europe being 'socialist' is rooted - it was a form of 'with us or against us' in economics way back then - & much of western Europe with it's sense of 'social responsibility/conscience' & public spending agenda just didn't fit the Thatcherite or Reaganite 'bill'.....& above all dared to say so within the EEC/EU.)

Cue The Sun's "Up yours Delors" when Jacques Delors (President of the European Commission between 1985 and 1995) dared comment about the UK's appalling unemployemnt figues of the time.
Note that they'd nothing to say about the grotesque level of British unemployment but an embarrassing & infantile dig at a foreigner was deemed fit for a full front page splash.
[img]http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=tbn:vcp5H0mDHfWToM:www.sterlingtimes.org...[/img]
The Sun & France in the 1980 - 90's

This was also a move to play on old attitudes to attempt to consolidate the ideals & attitudes of the then British tory 'new right' as 'natural' to the British people - & one which has been adopted & followed ever since by large sections of the British media.

It's the oldest trick in the book, Europe stopped being about a cooperative union where the UK had the same & equal voting rights as everyone else (including vetos) & became all about 'them' trying to 'dictate' to us & a general inference that "they hate us, so we'll hate them, always have always will, isn't that right....... everybody?".
Similar tactics to those used by team sports managers across the globe.

'Europe', in certain people's eyes, was all about all of them being consumed with trying to 'get' the UK.
Rarely can an anti-EU British newspaper go further than 1/4 of the way in without references to Napoleon, WW1, WW2 or Hitler.
It's rather sad & pathetic actually.

Interesting tho that lately it is the right in the UK that are making noises about disliking US foreign policy & the UK seemingly going along with it easily.....& yet a Europe that has stood up & is obviously extremely reluctant to follow suit is not regarded any more warmly.
Go figure.

(obviously merely typical opportunistic posturing, we know from then tory leader Michael Howard's comments at the time that the British tory party would have been in Iraq with the USA without any UN resolutions never mind the failed attempt at a 2nd one.
Then he decided to 'sort of' jump on the anti-war bandwagon & Bush fell out with the British tory party).


[edit on 16-12-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Here's a decent little article put together by a Lib-Dem MP



- Click the link for the full article.

link

Here's the official Government pamphlet that went to every British home before the 1975 referendum -



Full text of pamphlet here

- Quite clearly this does not simply talk about trade....so, now that folks can see this, would people mind stop spreading the misinformnation about this, hmmmm?


[edit on 16-12-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Sminkeypinkey, thank you for your gargantuan post.

It is very clear your political stance and that you are a pro-euro person, when I have the time I will disseminate your post in reply.

But just wanted to ask you this.... When has a referendum on a major political issue ever been questioned as a correct means by which to judge what the people want?

You say the Constitution is not happening?? I’m saying the constitution may not be signed but the directives are being carried out right as we speak WITHOUT a public VOTE.

To FORCE people to go down a route that may or may not be wanted by the majority, is not an act of Democracy. It is a travesty of Justice and we cannot allow this or any government to get away with it.

Just before I go, I would like to address what you said about my post being a call for attention… If I were you, I would have done a little research on my previous postings and threads I have authored.
Perhaps you should have taken the time to look at my overall history on ATS before you start bantering around slanderous comments such as attention seeker.

It takes intelligence to notice intelligence,

I will reply in full later.

All the best,

NeoN HaZe.

[edit on 16-12-2006 by Neon Haze]

- NP, these are hardly small matters.



- I don't think you have to actually be especially 'pro' the EU, Euro or Europe (or 'anti', for that matter) to just tell the truth about the history of what happened and why with regard to the UK's membership
(which is a large part of my posts in relation to this matter).

But yes, given Europe's collective history I am very pro-European Union.
I think it is the only sane and beneficial course of action for us all to take.



- Well there are lots of people who don't like the idea of Gov by referendum.

I quite like the idea of electing a Gov that has the guts to actually govern and with MPs, Ministers and a PM that will take responsibility for the coherent program of Government they laid out in their manifesto at the time of the general election.

Anyhoo as far as entry into the € goes it appears all the main British political parties are agreed on a referendum on that and the Labour Gov promised another if the so-called 'constitution' had survived the Dutch and French referendums.
But it didn't.

Gov by referendum has many flaws and problems and is absolutely not a coherent program of Gov.

Interestingly tho those that seem to have so many problems with the EU today seem to imagine another referendum is the answer.

I would not be so sure.

A referendum is always preceeded with a long campaign to ensure the issues are thrashed out and widely known
(which is how come one can state catagorically that notions that people 'hid the truth about the EEC/EU' in the last one are a lie).



- That is quite right.

The facts are that it is not.

However it was a huge document encompassing many separate technical elements, some of those separate elements have been deemed very valuable and worthwhile for the better running of the EU and are being implemented through agreement by the member states' Governments.



- Well that's not quite what you originally said.

In any event and as I have already said the fact is that the sovereign Gov.s comprising the EU have found parts of the so-called 'constitution' vital and they are enacting those parts of it they deem necessary and valuable right now by agreement.

This is hardly unusual as much of that so-called 'constitution' was fairly 'mechanical', 'technical' and pretty mundane actually, having a lot to do with updating treaties from the days of a 7, 9, 12 etc membership EEC/EU to todays 25 and shortly 27 country membership.

But that's what Gov is for.

We all had our 'public vote' at the general election.

We elect them to take these decisions for us because they can access and consider information and devote themselves full time to matters of state in a way and to a degree that most of us 'ordinary people' cannot.

That's one of the big problems with referendums, they are not only a very unweildy mechanism but they cannot address every specific need or point at hand......and in this regard they may be seen as actually anti-democratic because they reduce complex issues down to force a simplistic yes or no answer.

Dictators have always loved them and that ought to be warning enough to us all, it's dumbing down politics and I'm not comfortable with that at all on principle.

It's also true to say - and this might surprise you - that some people who want a referendum on this matter want it because they believe they would win the campaign....for a 'yes'.

Those people believe the UK should be given the chance to give it's answer on this matter and go on to enact as much of this so-called 'constitution' as we can so as to stop the UK losing out on some of it's important provisions that will otherwise be extremely unlikely to happen.

I have a certain sympathy for this approach, I also have a bit of a liking for the idea of forcing the issue once and for all.
But the problem is that as we can see from the last referendum there never is a 'once and for all'.
It'll probably always be kicked around as an issue
(although maybe in another 50 - 100yrs people will be more comfortable with it all and see the separatists as plain daft).

The present course of not picking unnecessary fights when you don't have to is probably best (for us all in this country) in the long run.

But I have no doubt myself that after a sitting down to a proper campaign and giving serious consideration to the issues it would be the yes side that would be the winner of the popular vote.

There's simply no need to humiliate the 'no' element and cause even further resentments.



- I'm sorry but this is just slanted rhetoric.

We had a free and fair democratic election in the UK as recently as May 2005.
We had our say and we as a nation elected the present Labour Gov, again.

Nobody forced anybody to do anything.
We all knew Labour was either overall pretty neutral and in places fairly pro-EU
(even if the critics claims are quite often laughably overdone).

Amongst the various parties standing we could have chosen and freely elected -
1) the 'get out of Europe' party (UKIP) and we absolutely did not.
2) the 'have as little to do with Europe without actually leaving it' party (Conservative) and we most certainly did not.
There were also people like the 'Socialist Labour party' standing with candidates on an anti-EU platform and the BNP and not one of them got elected either.



- No, it's called British democracy and you'll just have to live with it for several years yet.
......and I wouldn't be quite so certain that Labour is on the way out come 2009/10 either.



- I'm sorry but I don't 'research' that kind of thing and never will bother to either.
What on earth for?
I'm responding to the comment(s) made (here), not the person
(or has been said elsewhere).

Please just jump down off that high-horse a little & wind you neck in a tad & take a small & mild joke for what it is/was.



- Anytime.


[edit on 16-12-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

United Kingdom would never leave the European Union, even the Tories are starting to see that leaving would be a huge blow to our influence on the international stage. British voters know that too. We are starting to benefit from the EU, especially being able to travel freely, work and live in Europe.

We now have influence in the EU (us, France and Germany are the Big 3) and would you want to ruin that by leaving the EU? Plus, it gives us a HUGE say in the UN because the EU nations tend to work together. France and UK are planning to state voting as one in the UN.



Your wrong. Germany wants to bring them forward, but many nations, including the United Kingdom, Ireland, Holland and Spain have said that the Constitution is dead and cannot be brought back in its current form.

back to the start...



We are a EU member state already

Btw, did you read on the EU constituition and the EU in general? apart from UKIP propaganda stuff? you will see that many European Countries will not allow a Super state to be created. Especially the French.

Europe will come together more and more in the future. its going to happen. We are the biggest melting pot. Think of the Many British people who now live in Europe, especially Spain and the different Europeans moving around. You will not see a United States of Europe, but there will be a Confederacy in the future at some point. Probably when the EU has reformed itself.

[edit on 2-1-2007 by infinite]

[edit on 2-1-2007 by infinite]