trampling over 10% of the population

if anyone was telling you that they believed that rolling over the rights of 10% of the american population was alright by them, you'd call them nuts. well... i assume you would because it seems like a horrible thing to do from a moral perspective.

anyway, it doesn't seem to be a problem when that 10% of the population is atheists. every day at many american schools atheists were subjected to hearing (it is illegal to make a student stand for the pledge or national anthem) the pledge of allegiance complete with "under God" in it. a phrase that wasn't added until 1954. every day atheists are forced to handle money that says "in God we trust" on it. the national motto as declared by act in 1956.... whatever happened to that 1st amendment

not only does this harm atheists, it harms no monotheists. by capitalizing the g in god they are citing a particular deity.

add this to the rampant mistrust and bigotry towards atheists and we have an institutional problem.

so tell me, what's your justification for it?

As a strong Christian, I can tell you that it is my sincerest desire that religion stays out of government, as much as you want and maybe even more. The way I see it, it's "all or nothing". Either we are abundantly clear that religion is to stay out of government or we are on a slippery slope to theocracy, a government which is good for no one, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, because your religion may be on top today, but sucks for you if its on bottom tomorrow (and this happens quite often in theocracies).

thank you uber, a secular coalition would be nothing without theists backing it as well.

also, another point. what was wrong with "e pluribus unum"? it seems like a perfectly good motto for our country. "out of many one" quite accurately describes how america is.

Teddy Roosevelt said it best:

"My own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege ... it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements."

-On "In God We Trust", Letter to William Boldly, November 11, 1907,

[edit on 11-5-2007 by uberarcanist]

Agreed.

The doctrine "seperation of church and state" needs to be enforced a lot more than it is now. And (like s/he said) things need to be black/white, no gray areas.

Unfortunately, the fact that our president is a devout Christian (among other things...) makes it tough. The biggest issues I have are the prohobition of gay couples being married. According to one (dominant) religion, it is a sin and somehow immoral to love someone of the same sex. But that's a totally different story.

As for the pledge and the money system... America was built mainly because of religion (Catholicism). The pilgrims came to America to escape religious persecution and because of their desire of free worship, America was constructed and is now what it is today. I'm an Atheist, and I honestly don't care at all that God is in the pledge or on my money. Simply because, I don't say the pledge because I'm not particularly patriotic and I use money for spending, not analysing.

Political correctness is at its strongest right now. Perhaps you're taking it for granted. They don't mention God not just for Atheists but for Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, etc.

It's amazing to me that atheists complain about having to hear about God, when 80-90 percent of the poulation that does believe in a supreme being is FORCED to accept such ideas as evolution and no one sees a problem with that. That's okay, eh? That's 'trampling" over 80-90 percent of the population. By the way, yes, I believe that evolution is the mechanism that God used to produce life on earth, but that is really beside the point.





[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

This might sound short, but it has to be said none the less, real atheists don't give a heck about this.
Its only the ones that are trying to turn atheism in an organised religion of their own that have a problem with it.

And speaker, what exactly does evolution have to do with atheism?

Organised religion and even christianity can coexist with evolutionary theory, its only the whackjobs that think the earth is 6000 years old that have a problem with evolution and other then in the US, they are in short supply.

[edit on 12/5/07 by thematrix]

Most atheists demand that evolution be taught in the school. That's what it has to do with it. Thank ya. Thank ya.



[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

No, no. Evolution is a very valid scientific theory. In fact, it's the best supported theory of "how we got here." And it's taught as that: the THEORY of evolution. All science is theory, including physics and chemistry; as humans, we just make educated guesses based on our observations.

Just because the theory of evolution, something that came about due to valid scientific research, threatens Creationism, doesn't mean that we need to censor it.

If you're going to bitch about creationism being taught to a minute minority, then you should bitch about evolution being taught to the MAJORITY who do believe in some intellgent creator. It's really that simple. That's my point.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

What do you mean by creationism being taught to a minute minority? Where is this?

That is what madness, is saying.... He wants any refernce to God to be removed from school. What the hell for? Let's just remove everything that may "offend" someone from the schools. Let's remove the teachings about slavery, evolution, WW2, et cetera. Hell, let's just remove everything and anything that might "offend" someone from society and see what we have left. I get tired of listening to people's belly aching.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

The problem is that public education is the government, which I think is a fundamentally bad idea. Public education shouldn't teach religion as in anything other than a historical context, simply because the government can't endorse a religion without violating its principles. Religion, therefore, is best taught either by parents or through a religious school.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by Johnmike]

I am just venting. I get so tired of seeing political correct garbage every where. You can't say this, you can't say that. What can you say? What can you say that isn't going to "offend" someone somewhere?

People are emotionally paper thin nowadays. Every little thing "offends" them. Well, I am beoming offended. I am becoming offended due to the fact that I nor can anyone else say what is really on thier mind without someone becoming "offended."

Now, people such as madness, want to completely illiminate any mention of the word God, Jesus, Buddha,Krishna or anything else that has spiritual connotations to it. We cannot allow a bullying minority dictate to the masses what is and is not acceptable. We cannot.

I will fight it with the my last dying breath. I promise you and anyone else that tries to take away my right to discuss my spirituality or anything else I wish to discuss, I will fight you to the last. It's not a threat, it's a promise.





[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Yeah, the political correctness garbage in the United States is very tiring. I have that, then the inverse racism (I'm a white male who goes to a predominately black school). It's quite frustrating. Either way, though, you can't include religion in the curriculum of public education. That said, you shouldn't censor it, either.

The whole reason this problem exists, though, is because the government is in charge of so much. Get the government out of the schools and maybe it'll get better.

By the way, for people who claim to be all about "freedom," some sure do have no problem with resricting the rights of others that they disagree with. Hmmmph, is it really "freedom" you support, or assimilation. I think it's the latter rather than the former.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way implying a theocratic state. I think that would be a disaster. However, why take the mentioning out of God out of the pledge of allegiance, especially when it is just to satisfy ten percent of the population? What about the other 80-90 percent that believes in some sort of creator? It's not right. It's not and I will fight it with every breath that I can muster.

[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Malarky!! I have never ever made fun of someone because of their religious beliefs. Hell, most would say that I am a "New Ager" rather than a throughbred Christian. Why would I make fun of anyone's beliefs? Also, why would a Muslim be offended by the mention of God? They can transplant the name of Allah or Krishna or whatever else anyone sees fit to transplant into that spot. It doesn't specify what God's name is in the pledge.


I don't care what God anyone does or doesn't worship. If you're atheist, fine. That is your choice. I personally think it is misguided, but, that is your choice.

However, when the atheist movement starts dictating to me, what I should be and shouldn't be able to talk about, uh-uhhh. It's not going to fly. It's not going to fly with me now, and it's never going to fly with me.



[edit on 12-5-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

We need to get God out of the pledge because it's connecting religion, especially Christianity, with the government.

I have to say, I agree with madness about removing any religious symbols or notions
from government, and that includes the pledge and the money.

Now, that said personally I don't handle money enough to be insulted by the word god,
not that I am normally, but it still should'nt be there.

As for the pledge, well it the word god should be removed from it, in fact the only reason
it was added is because McCarthy's red scare, people wanted to be as opposite of the
soviet union as
possible, and since the soviet union enforced strict secularism, especially in government,
the senators decided to change it.

Honestly though, I stopped saying the pledge three years ago, and before that I just did'nt
say the word god, I stopped even standing for it anymore as well, I really just ignore it.