The Enemies of Free Speech

This is less akin to turning out the lights, and more like using a fogger to clean the house.

If they are forced underground, then they are not openly corrupting the general public on the scale they are now, thus significantly reducing the psycological terror of your everyday citizen. That is my response to that.

[edit on 8/27/2007 by DYepes]

I am not afraid. Not in the least. I've been around a few years and I have seen lots of change and I have no issue with change. I do have an issue with being controlled by the government, even down to what we are permitted to say.

Words do not corrupt. Power corrupts.

We the people are not telling YOU what to do unless what you are doing is spreading hate and supremacist rehtoric, and/or corrupting the youth by instilling those values.

Are you corrupting our youth or not? If you do not sell drugs to teenagers and kids, then we the peope are not telling YOU to stop selling drugs, this applies the same way.

But by all means, if hate and supremacy and glorifying violence is your thing, have a tea-party and discuss whatever it is you wish to discuss. We ask that you simply do not distribute publicly accessable media in a large volume where it can and will corrupt our youth.

If you would not want if for your own children, why should you allow others to be corrupted by it?

There is no "allowing" others to be corrupted. That's just twisted logic. I don't "allow" or disallow anything for other people's children.

It's a parent's job to protect their children and if they're NOT doing their job, we can't go out and make laws against people's influence over our kids.

I'm not against protecting children (man, you're making me out to be some really twisted individual!) I'm FOR protecting one of our most basic rights. And you're not going to convince me to change my mind on that. No matter how bad you try to make me look.

This is the classic attack that results when the base arguements are weak: "We have to to it for the children!!!".
Using this kind of rhetoric is the most base and worthless sort of "logic" to prove a point.
BUt, if it needs to be refuted; Why should I have my freedoms restricted because some incompetent parents can't instill proper values and guidance in their offspring? Lousy parents have always existed and will continue to. To say that we need to oppress and restrict the rights of others to compensate for that is ludicrous.

[edit on 28-8-2007 by passenger]

No, that right there is the arguement people use when they refuse to see the truth.

Fact is, your right are not beiong restricted unless you publish media that supports/advocates supremacy, hatred, and/or violence and distribute it where it will corrupt and pollute the communities of people's friends and families.

I really hate to dissapoint you all, but the Constitution WILL change in the future in order to fix the degressive pattern our society is getting into, and if you fight it the only thing you are doing is fighting for the bad guys, simple as that.

You have two choices, preserve the empire and watch it crumble, or preserve the society and maintain order. I am working to preserve the society, even if it means we will give up the empire. It is a worthy sacrafice to make IMO.

Hi BH, I thought I'd find you in this thread

DYepes, I can understand your concerns and what you are proposing in the OP ( I had a similar argument with BH before ) but then BH's points are undeniable. Censorship by the powers that be will only lead to abuse and erosion of other freedoms eventually.

Instead of changing the law so that the fuzzy line becomes clearer, why not increase education so that the people themselves practice self-censorship and draw a solid line themselves? And by education I mean the whole thing, from pure academics to learning the culture and practices of others. A complete, well-rounded education that used to be the main distinction of the American education system (as opposed to the British education system.. ick!)

In my humble opinion that is the best way to go about this situation, because when people are educated, they're less likely to go around promoting hate or inciting violence. Unless of course they've an agenda to fulfil.

reply to post by Beachcoma

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That's the whole argument in a nutshell, Beachcoma. Making laws, and/or changing laws doesn't do a thing towards changing mindsets. They must want to change, and to want to change they must see the change as a better alternative. That requires education...nothing less will work.

Change all the laws you want, that won't change a single heart or mind.

Well I have tried saying that before, and all I got was "hahaha you are living in a dream world" "get real man".

I would love to improve the education, but that still means giving up the empire, and that means a change in the way society works. I gaurantee you that half the people here arguing against my theory here would be damned to see their precious military removed from half of the world's nations. That is one of the only ways we are going to increase the budget for education in order to bring the desired results without passing the laws we are currently debating.

Unfortunately, many of these people will argue that if we do so we will be showing the world we are weak, giving up the fight on terror, and leave the world and ourselves vulnerable to who knows what. People here do not know what they want for the future, so they just want it to stay the same as it is now and let the next generation figure it out.

As far as I can see and feel, the general vibe I am gettign is fear, fear, and more fear.

There's no "easy way" about it. Changing the law is the easiest way, obviously, but it would only be a short-term solution. Education is an ongoing process. Right now it seems that US citizens are "educated in fear" from all the propaganda spewing out their idiot boxes. You guys live in a culture of fear. There's always something/someone/some group that your media wants you to be afraid of. That's poor education.

In my country the government wouldn't even admit that a small tornado rampaged through a suburb of the capital, not wishing to panic the populace. Hell, they wouldn't even admit that there are tornadoes in Malaysia, despite the fact that there is a local term for the phenomena -- puting beliung. Not saying it is good to cover up facts, but when faced with two evils, it seems they made the right choice and chose the lesser of them. A little white lie I guess.

When people are less panicky, they're less edgy and less likely to be suspicious of everyone and everything. Again, that's a good thing and a bad thing, but in my opinion the good there outweighs the bad.

Education. It takes time. It takes effort. It's not easy.

Well we will definetly try. The author of Rich Dad Poor Dad series of books, Robert Kiyosaki's father attempted to make changes and reform to the education system when he ran for some political seat in Hawaii during Robert's youth. His Father had been a teacher for many a years and had an experienced career in the field. Unfortunately, he was blacklisted and had his career ruined for wanting to make the changes he wanted to do.

The system is very content with the public school system pumping out an endless supply of low-wage slaves and the hopeful managers to keep them in line. It is only designed to let the ones they need get through, like scientists, doctors, engineers and only in limited numbers. even then they are treated as mere disposable assets in most of their industries.

The media merely makes sure everyone else stays stupid enough to work for low wages and ignorant of the Democratic system, while at the same time being guided to hate each other and glorify crime.

I look at the way our society has gotten, and I say to myself "Self, you can sit around and lose hope, or make it your damn mission to utilize the democratic system and make a difference. Get them laws passed and help to remove the perversion that has rotted the future of our society!"

The other problem with the education bit is that you would need a massive national media campaign just to make the proles (and we are included as the proles as well) aware of the need and benefits of such a change. And well, I am sure you can guess who has real control over the National media conglomerates.

The best way to change the system is not to fight it, but use it, work your way up, and change it for the better.

Problem is, more times than not when a person enters The System in an effort to change it, The System changes them instead. Or even worse. A local example in Malaysian politics I can use is that of Anwar Ibrahim. He tried to change the system but got handed his arse intead. Like the local proverb goes, "kalau nak cuci tong taik, jangan masuk dalam tong, roughly translated as "if you wanna clean the cesspool, don't get inside it."

I dont see how you can claim that to be true, if you have never personally known any of our politicians, although I cannot speak for who you have known in your country.

I have met and talked with many of my local leaders, and they have done many good things. they are not involved in any corruption scandals or anything like that.

Those bad apples we have now mostly started as bad apples. Others who are good people simply do what they are doing as a career and nothing more.

Telling people to stay out of the system is akin to saying dont ever lead. Stay a good little follower and let someone else lead.

Start local, develop your support, and move on up. Thats what I am doing.

I would LOVE to see the military removed from the rest of the world! Today's "precious" US military is largely a cluster of corruption and just an extension of the corrupt government. Don't be so quick to pigeonhole people just because they disagree with you.



The general vibe? Why are you putting this general vibe on us? I have said several times that I'm not afraid. This is not about fear! You're the one who's afraid of what's going to happen to our children if we allow Free Speech to stand as it is. Don't put your fear on me.



You're living under the illusion that LAWS can remove PERVERSION!!!



You're going to need a massive national media campaign to change the first amendment, too! But you'd rather use that to limit citizens rights than to educate them! (What are proles?)



Yeah, why don't you do that instead of messing with the Constitution? Why don't you use whatever influence and support you gain to educate people?

Fair enough Bh, fair enough. Perhaps I have over-arched a bit, and perhaps I should indeed focus on the education more so than the legislation.

It always was my true aim. In the spirit of good faith, I will abandon this thread and create one on education reform.

Thank you all for all of your thoughts, and time. And thank you especially, BH. Your experience in this world has no doubt brought much wisdom, and for that I applaud.

For all intents and purposes, this thread is dead.

I look forward to seeing it.