That's the question. By your best estimate, using what you know or have access to, how many civilian deaths do you think there have been in Iraq related to this war?

I'd like to see the range of what people are thinking about this.

Thank you.

Any estimate is going to be skewed.

We are fighting an enemy that does not wear uniforms. They cowardly hide among the general population. Some have even been known to dress in womens clothing. They even have been known to plan their attacks from mosques.

How do you distinguish a terrorist from a civilian?

I'm not sure we'll ever know for sure. Three or four different sides to the conflict, factions within those sides, a morass if you will. All of them killing, and being killed.

No front lines...deliberate attempts to hide the killing. As RR says, the various reporting bodies have their own axes to grind so the numbers are going to be skewed.

I don't think an accurate count is really possible.

I don't think an accurate count is possible, either. That's why I asked for people's "Best estimate". But it's clear that people don't even want to venture that close to the subject... I wonder why...

It's hard to even venture a guess when estimates are spread so far across the board...

At least that's my take on this particular subject...not that its not worthy of discussion, because it most certainly is. It's just that all the information I see is contradictory.

I don't work this evening, thank God, I'll dig abit furthur, and maybe tomorrow or soon we can have this discussion.

I've heard estimates from 100,000 to a million. I tend to think it's probably somewhere in the middle, so 500k. I'll see what I can find, too. Thanks.

The real question is does it really matter at this point? I mean too many have died already from both sides. If US leaves then there will be even more death, if they stay there still be death. It is a lose-lose situation.
But to answer your question OP:
If you research it, then you will find numbers from 78,000 up to 655,00. I can not really tell you which one is right because I do not know.

I think it's important to have some perspective.









Really? Do many people rationalize our continued presence there by thinking about it in terms of a lose/lose situation? Do they tell themselves, "Hey, lots of people have died on both sides..." to make it seem more "equal"?

There have been about what? 4000 coalition casualties? Add the 3000 from 9/11 and you've got 7000. Even if there were only 700,000 Iraqi deaths, that's 100 times the deaths we've suffered...

Yeah, I think it's important to put things into perspective.

Sadly now, it's all statistics. I mean the fact that some can even ask "does it really matter at this point" speaks volumes. People don't care. NIMBY. Not in my back yard.

People suck.

The government has actually done a commendable job at keeping the people "fat, dumb and happy" and most of all, far removed from the ugliness of this particular conflict. They're VERY good at what they do!

It is made clear that when people go against the government in a public way, they get tased, but they do it just enough so that millions don't revolt. And those millions? Why, they make sure we have enough loan money and credit cards for a big car and the gas to go in it and a nice comfy home and a big screen TV on which to watch our mind-numbing sports programs and reality shows in Dolby surround.

That way, if we start to think too much about the number of bloody, violent and useless death our government's causing in our name and in the name of peace and freedom, we can just change the channel, turn up the volume and go back into our trance...

I think I share the sentiment of "really ? This matters to me because.......?" . Obviously, this is not something I dont count as good or bad because at the end of the day I'm concerned if its okay to go downtown without the need for a flak jacket.

Good thing all those Iraqi civilians are dead then, huh? Because they're just out looking around our streets to find people who aren't wearing their flak jackets...

Just another senseless rationalization.

[edit on 1-10-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

I'll be so bold as to disagree with you, BH. Fat, dumb, and happy are for me far from the truth, as it is for, unfortunately, many Americans. My stake in this conflict are very personal. My brother is over there as we speak. It doesn't get much more personal than that, and I'm, obviously, not alone in that.

I know you, personally, don't mean anything by that statement, but many herein do.

Flack Jacket or not they want to do some harm. Their reasons change with the weather and I could care less what they want but i know what most Americans want and that is for this terrorist problem to go away. As long as they are blowing each other up in their own countries that should provide as ample opportunity for us to shore up our borders and purge their cells within our borders. The strongest tactic in any war is the one where you acheive the maximum results with the least effort on our part. The best way to do this is to get them to kill each other. In the end we would only have to deal with a smaller problem rather than bigger one because of the infighting.

Its like Michavellis said "It is much more secure to be feared than to be loved. " and also "Take comfort in the discord of your foes".

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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bh, first of all I applaud you for your search for the truth. However, I believe that official UN figures after the sanctions imposed on Iraq before the first Gulf War pegged the figure at 500, 000 for Iraqi children alone. This toll can be added to by the deaths in the second Gulf War.

However, let's be human here. EVERY death, Iraqi or American is tragic in Iraq. This is a war fought for control of diminishing fossil fuel reserves. There will be, by inevitability future wars, future excuses to generate so that American and other lives will be lost for the sake of American business, not for the American nation.

Please let's get real here - this is a tragic and misplaced one-sided fight - not a patriotic struggle against a hostile nation.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

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Look, I used to live in Iraq, and I was born there. I say right now I do not really care about the statistics of how many died. All I care about is when will the people stop dying, then we can do the counting and statistics.
Personally though, I think about 600 000 Iraqi civilians have died in this tragedy.

[edit on 7-10-2007 by Equinox99]

Of course you are correct. My intent isn't so much a search for the truth an the exposure of same...



I also want people to stop dying. I want our government to stop killing innocent people falsely in the name of freedom and safety. And one way to do that is encourage people to think about and bring into their conscious minds just how many are dying for this lie.

It's safe to say far too damned many have died, and it doesn't look to change any time soon. Exactly how many will in all likelihood never be certain. Hundreds of years of killing on both sides, and no end in sight.

Eventually it'll end, and the results will sicken any one with a conscience or anything vaguely resembling one. Half a million (apparently) and counting. Hell of a legacy to leave our children. All because people on both sides can't leave well enough alone... Killing in the name of God... Killing in the name of Allah... Killing in the name of profit... Political power... Think of a reason, sorry make that excuse, and you'll find it being used more than likely.