Why do we need to respect soldiers? I don't get it.

I think I see what the OP is getting at. No offence, but it could be worded much better.. However, I'll give you some understanding as I'm not so eloquent with words myself.

The answer is quite simply that you do not need to respect, cheer, or cry for anyone and I'm sure the soldiers in Iraq don't expect you to. At the end of the day, I'm sure they just want to get back to their family, friends, hobbies etc. No different than anyone else.

And what's with the "lowest level on earth business" all about? There are people in the military from all walks of life. What criteria did you use to come to this conclusion?

I think what you are really trying to say is why do TODAY's SOLDIERS get looked upon in the same way that YESTERDAY's SOLDIERS do? Afterall, the people who fought the British were from a different time. Just like the soldiers who fought against Hitler. IMO, in the past, it was more necessary for EVERYONE to take up arms and the consequences for NOT doing so were much more severe.

Today things are different. The US of A has swelled to 300 million people and there are plenty of people volunteering for service. Why not sit at home in luxury and sip your Starbucks? I totally understand that and feel that (without getting too political) it is a sound philosophical argument.

Ultimately this country needs soldiers AND people who stay at home and produce in other ways. If you want to stay on top of the world you need a population that produces.

Anyways.... as far as today's soldiers getting the same respect as servicemen from the past... again all a matter of opinion. I.E. > I can easily argue that since populations were much smaller in the past, that using every able bodied man wasn't about respect- it was mandatory for the survival of the group. From this perspective it seems that today's men & women in the military should be easier to respect.

So really the question ends up getting into an anlysis of history and the evolution of human society and the evolution of the human industrial military complex. Instead of going on and on, I'll simply say that you should reserve judgement on most. There are many respectable people out there. Some wear the uniform and some don't.

US History will teach you that without violence and without soldiers, there would be no freedom of speech, assembly, religion, we'd be denied our human rights, Africans would still be enslaved, we'd be under the oppression of King George XCIX or whatever it would be now ... Are you getting my point? Giving in to oppression and not fighting back would be perpetuating a vicious cycle.

Not to say that's the case with America! I do not agree with the human lives Bush is wasting right now over something so incredibly ...

so don't get me wrong.



I don't agree with the Iraq war either. Neither do a lot of people, but you have to realise that there are soldiers on reserve that don't know what's in store for them. And soldiers that signed up for ROTC in their highschool years that had no clue that one day they'd be in the fray in Iraq.

And believe it or not, hundreds of US soldiers don't agree with the war they're thrown into, but guess what? They have to go anyway but not without a say. Freedom of speech (which soldiers fought to attain) allowed them to voice their opinions even if they differed from the government.

A Marine was quoted saying on the news...
"We killed a lot of innocent civilians. To us every civilian in Baghdad was a terrorist. They said 'they are now in civilian clothes' that makes everybody free game, but if they came in our perimeter, we lit 'em up. And when we would pull the body out, and when we would search the car, we would find nothing. This took place time and time again. No harm, no foul, that's OK, don't worry about it, because this is a new type of war, this is an eradication.
I honestly feel we're committing genocide over here. I don't believe in killing civilians, and I'm not going to kill civilians for the United States Marine Corps."



Would rewording the point and still believing in it make us not be regurgitating information? We mean what we say even if someone has said it before us.

And on a side note; you are on the wrong site to accuse people of being blindly obedient, haha. I'd say the people on ATS think ... quite outside of the box. So don't assume that because we disagree with you or the OP that it's because we're blindly obedient. Oh no, we see fine.



Agreed. But soldiers in the Norwegion armed forces and soldiers in the American armed forces are fighting for the same reasons, patriotism and what they think is right. Having that much courage and will, to die for something that is bigger than themselves, is admirable to say the least. Although you may not agree about what they're fighting for, they're humans nonetheless. Just like you and me.

Thus, they deserve respect.

AND THEY ARE NOT THE LOWEST HUMAN BEINGS ON EARTH. Thank you.

So, if you REALLY want to end this "vicious cycle" instead of decrying the men and women who serve and protect us, why don't you write to your senator or congressperson (I'm going to presume you're a US citizen) and tell them to get off their collective posteriors and tell the current administration to stop their juvenile cowboy diplomacy and start making the US less of a world pariah. Oh...that's right... that makes too much sense... It's SOOO much easier to just blame the messenger(s)...



Right back at'cha sweetheart.

Oh, by the way, I already LIVED through the "America -- Love it or Leave it" 60's. It was stupid then and it's still stupid. But that doesn't mean I think people shouldn't recognize the sacrifices made by our men and women in the armed forces.



And when are YOU gonna pick up and actually READ a history book?? C'mon...we're not talking the Dark Ages here. Norway was OCCUPIED by the Nazis in WW2. Where do you think the term "quisling" came from? And one of the reasons they DON'T live "in misery and oppression" is because of the thousands of American and British and Australian and local partizan groups (and, trust me, there were quite a few in Norway) that fought and died and rescued Europe from the darkness that was Nazi Germany. Y'all may WISH that we don't need the "sharp end of the stick" to keep the barbarians from the gates, but it just ain't so and never has been.

Leigh Smith

Actually, they have the choice to ASK for CO status, but it is not a guarantee that they will GET it. And, once they have been drafted their options are to go AWOL (and many did) or sit in the stockade for the duration (and many others did just that).

You have to remember, the VAST majority of the men that fought in Vietnam were neither wealthy nor well-educated. Mostly because those who WERE wealthy (q.v. G. W. Bush) or well-educated could get draft deferments (q.v. college deferments) or work out some other form of service (again, q.v. G. W. Bush).

So saying that they made a CHOICE, is a bit of a specious argument.

Leigh Smith

I nearly chocked on my lunch reading the OP.

Just yesterday i was on the bus, and a soilder was on the bus, and the other passengers on the bus looked at him with contepmt, and shunned him.

I stood up and said "Mr. X I want to thank you for seraving our country"

His face lit up, he said thanks and no problem

You don't have to agree with the way the war is going, to support our troops, the greatest of all Americans, who put thier lifes on the line, to preserve our freedoms.

In short, they fight so you can spit in thier face.

This thread and the OP disgust me. I have more regard for a c0ckroach than for some of the asinine, ingrate, hypocrites posting in this thread.

Anyone agreeing with the OP of this thread is beneath contempt.

And yes....those are personal attacks. Not everyone deserves respect and to have their ideas viewed as valid. When an argument borders on insanity, taking it seriously only validates it. This idea that anyone's idea or opinion is just as valid as the next guy's is nonsense. Some people deserve ZERO respect. The OP is one of these people.

reply to post by tenryuu

---

O.k., a bit of semantics, but it is important to make the distinction.

I never said they made the choice. They had the choice, and sure, in your example it was cherry pie and whipped cream that sugar-coated the choice of service, but there was a choice nonetheless.
It's just that it is not an easy choice, especially in a nation that glorifies its warriors.

I, personally, know some servicemen and we have interesting discussions. We hardly ever agree, but we can agree to disagree and still remain friendly.

I am not ashamed of my views, and I understand that they do not make me popular with 'those who have served'; but there are other forms of service other than military. It's just that the majority of them don't crow about or even seek acknowledgement.

We talk of civilisation and so on, but really, when is war civilised?

Please, before you reply, could you see all my posts here in this discussion.
I don't want to have to repeat to repeat to repeat myself ad infinitum


[edit on 3-10-2007 by AotearoaSon]

I have posted earlier my disagreement with the stance of th OP. I will try to make it a bit clearer.

I am a Native American. From a tribal standpoint, a person must (It is their honorable duty) do all they can to protect and preserve the tribe. These are your own people, your own brothers and sisters. America is my tribe, and Americans are all my brothers and sisters.

It may be that the group choses to act in an unwise manner, but it is not honorable to refuse to stand by those that are of your own people. That is what the OP, and others, have lost sight of. Indeed, what America with the help of the media, has lost sight of. Honor is above right or wrong, for these concepts of right and wrong change from time to time and place to place. Honor never changes.

I will go on protesting this war, as I have done wars in the past. But I have the spark of honor, so I will not fail to stand for my fellows; even when they may be wrong. Any other attitude wrecks the very future of the tribe of America. We will change, as a nation, and not everyone will agree with any new course that we take,but we will all still be part of the same tribe, the Americans.

You who want to be Americans, yet want to "spit" on those who follow a call to duty, for whatever reason, are misguided in your understanding of freedom. The very freedoms that let you call for changes in our way of life are purchased by the blood of those who went before you. Right or wrong, they are the spirit of our people. To "spit" on the spirit of America, and your brothers and sisters, is so wrong that I have no words to discribe it.

If you dishonor a man for protecting you from a danger, real or not, then you dishonor yourself. For by your actions and words you make it plain that nothing is more sacred to you than your own desires. You show that you are really small inside, having your own self as the only yardstick by which to measure the world.

Your words, coming as they do from those that have no concept of the word honor, cannot ever be of such worth as to cause dishonor to our troops. You fail by the very fact that you cannot grasp the meaning of the word honor.



[edit on 3-10-2007 by NGC2736]

reply to post by Vanguard223

---

Careful Vanguard. I have already been warned and had points taken away for defending our service men here in the states. I too was sickened and completely OFFENDED by having someone call our servicemen rapists and babykillers to my face. When I spoke my mind, using the very right (freedom of speech) they fight to protect, I was yelled at. I have been reminded by many of you fellow ATSers, that opinions are dangerous, unless they are anti-american. I have not come across the same feelings as that, as I have found the boards to be relative friendly, but a bit out there at times.

Appreciate your agreement Vangaurd, but be careful..... One persons freedoms are another persons insults.

If the OP had been warned for his offensive remarks, I would completely understand my warning, but I am sorry, I just don't get it. How was what I said any more offensive than what he said??????

There are a large number of Native Americans in the military long before 9/11 and there are far easier ways to make a living. It is kind of funny how an ethnic group that has been treated like crap since day one has so much courage to do what they feel is right.

To all those who agree with the OP I would like to ask are you willing to go to the ends of the earth for what you think is right? Do you have the courage to live a life based on your convictions? You all want us to give up everything in our lives that we have worked so hard for (and I’m not talking Iraq or 9/11) just because you disagree with the current administration. Are you willing to give up everything in your life for your own convictions?

Damn you people have some short ass memories. I’ll just go back to DS I. Who in the world was capable or had the will power to stop Saddam from owning Kuwait and then continuing on to Saudi and every other country in the Middle East? Who in the world could have stopped communism/militarism from global domination, but the US? The only fighting we did in Somalia was to protect the food from the warlords that we the military brought in after the failure of the UN and 500k plus people starved or were killed. Who else could have brought in 100,000 metric tons of food to feed the other 2 million people that were starving there? Who else would have delivered 17,000 tons of supplies and protected 500k Kurds from Saddam. Was there anyone but the US military able to prevent total ethnic cleaning of Albanians in Kosovo? What other military in the world could overcome the Taliban/warlords of Afghanistan, but the US?
And now we are in Iraq and all you who are not in the military can’t stomach it. We are not against the Iraqis for we are fighting for them/with them against groups/countries that do not want them to have a democracy of any kind. Who do you think are killing all those Iraqis? Not us. I don’t see too many American suicide bombers, or American IEDs around there, those are killing 10 fold more Iraqis than Americans. The vast majority of gun battles are not with the US either. The whole reason the country is still unstable is from groups/countries trying hard to keep it that way. They can’t beat us but they are doing a good job on many of you that are against Americans and look at them as poor innocent freedom fighters…lol


[edit on 3-10-2007 by Xtrozero]

How old are you...mentally that is?

The sacrifice of thousands of lives in the last two world wars has given the world the freed it has, and the freedom you have to speak sh%#.

THEY GAVE ALL THEIR TOMMOROWS FOR OUR TODAYS...

But your probably too damn dumb to comprehend.

How old are you...mentally that is?

The sacrifice of thousands of lives in the last two world wars has given the world the freedom it has, and the freedom you have to speak sh%#.

THEY GAVE ALL THEIR TOMMOROWS FOR OUR TODAYS...

[snip].
Courtesy Is Mandatory

[edit on 3-10-2007 by andy1972]

[edit on 10-4-2007 by worldwatcher]

Gee, and I thought it was because the Kuwaitis had drilled into Iraqi territory and were stealing their oil that they were attacked...probably rightly so!

And who now has the power to stop U.S.A. from owning Iraq and moving on to Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Saudi Arabia etc?

It's not to spread democracy, as the CIA (Criminals In Action) overthrew the democratically elected Mossadegh in 1954 (i think it was then), it's about resources....so no, I don't respect the soldiers who up upholding this....whether they know it or not is not an excuse. Ignorance is not an excuse, just following orders is not an excuse. Standing up to injustice in all its forms...well then , depending on their behaviour, I might just find itm in me to give them respect, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

While I realize this is Slugfest, please keep your debates civilized and remember the following when composing your responses.

Courtesy Is Mandatory

Reminder to All Members

I don't know why I'm wasting the electrons but I guess I hope that something somehow will allow a glimmer of light to enter the darken waste of space some people call their brains...

I wouldn't say that the US "owns" Iraq at this point. Heck, I'm not sure I'd even say we would EVER "own" Iraq. I'm not sure even the IRAQIS "own" Iraq. I think the Kurds might have something to say about that and I'm not even going to go into the whole "Shi'ite vs. Sunni vs. Wahabism vs. whatever" issue.

And, technically, we already HAVE "moved on" to Afghanistan or have you forgotten all about Hamid Karzai and Co? Oh, yeah, that's right... actually we "moved on" FROM Afghanistan... And boy was THAT a stupid idea. But, because the people running the show seem to have a LOT in common with many of the people who read and post here -- i.e., they seem to be completely unfamiliar with the concept of LEARNING from history -- they thought we could "cowboy" our way to world dominance. I'm gonna get a bumper sticker (surely the highest form of literature these days) that reads "Santayana was right!"

Oh, and on more personal note, I *DO* read all the posts and usually before I respond to any of them. But, now and again, one is so egregious that I have to make SOME reply before I move on. I could get all Rush-y and say "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" but your comment about CO status was more than semantically wrong, it was FACTUALLY incorrect. A man or woman, once inducted into the military can REQUEST CO status but few are successful in having it granted to them. So, if their request is denied they then have only two "choices": break the law and suffer the punishment and consequences thereto or "shut up and soldier." I don't have the precise numbers in front of me (although I'm sure I could dig them up with a little work) but I doubt that more than a tiny percentage of the fellows that found themselves in the Republic of Vietnam in the 60's and 70's ASKED to be there.

Leigh Smith
Reading for content since ... oh a few years now

Very short and well put. That is the most horrible thing you can do...
I think a big problem is that people see soldiers as someone who chose to enlist, carry a gun, and do anything necessary to survive (i.e. killing women and/or children) They enlisted to serve and protect our country, to fight for ignorant people to speak illy of them, to keep thier familys in a free country.

Now, im not a huge "fan" of America, I think Bush is a moron *SNIP*, I think that everyone in the white house doesn't have a clue thier head from thier butt. They are slowly taking away certain freedoms (i.e. no smoking) and they have got the US citizens so far in debt that we will never be OK financially, i feel they also have gotten us in so much "trouble" with other countries that everyone wants us dead and we will probably never make amense.

However, if there is one person who is doing the right thing, who is acutally thinking of the citizens (u and me), who is actually a good person, who is actually fighting FOR us, its a soldier. An American soldier is the one person you should respect because they are fighting for you my friends, for you and me; not Bush, not Iraq, not the republicans, not the democrats, not anyone else but you and me, the citizens of the US.
Think about who you should be thanking and who you should be blaming.
An American soldier is your biggest hero.

Think of it this way, if we didn't have our brothers and sisters out fighting, we would have to rely on Bush and the white house to save us... as we see they have screwed us and the soldiers are the only thing good in the government.

Mod Edit: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.

[edit on 4/10/2007 by Mirthful Me]

something tells me that even if you were called to fight to protect this soil all you would be able to do is go and hide behind hillary.. by your statement i would guess that you have no idea what the military does out side of combat. lets try disaster relief, civil engenering projects, the list goes on my friend..

WOW, and I get warned for statements made on this thread. There is a statement that can get you thrown in jail and nothing from the moderators????

Careful what you say, it can and will be used against you in a court of law! You have the right to remain silent.........

lets keep it a that!

Many of you speak against fighting in other countries and how it does nothing to protect your freedom within the states. Please consider this; once in the military we are not given a choice on how and where we will fight. There is not a question asking " Are you available for coups, insurgencies and OCONUS military actions? If yes what hours are you available?" If no one signed up for the services then what would we have when and if there was an attempt at and within our borders. Be as angery as you like at the controlling forces and the puppetmasters, just undestand that those of us who choose to serve are making ourselves available for anything here or there when and where needed. I personally would rather be here in the states ready to serve in case of natural disaster and closer to my family, not preparing to go play in the worlds largest sandbox. I'm sorry some of you are angryat us, but I must ask, Do you even know a soldier?

Because the two are intertwined. The issue of respect , for me, comes down to the reason they are fighting. At the moment they appear to be embroiled in an unjust and illegal war and thus, for me, do not deserve respect.