Ron Paul Supporters... Scaring Conservatives?

Branched off from an existing thread to limit off-topic posts there.

reply to post by semperfortis

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Source



So here's a guy who knows how to work with a budget; seems like the right attitude.

Semper, you argue that he is not conservative and cite a dictionary entry to do so? Come now, you're better than that. If things need to change in order to run a conservative government, then you can't bash him for not being conservative because he wants to make those changes. That logic is completely warped. Ironically (again), all of the other definitions of the word describe him to a tee. Especially the part about restoring traditional conditions/institutions, which, I think, is the entry you were making your argument on... that he wants change and that's not conservative.

Really?

As far as the antics of his supporters? Well why wouldn't they be excited and vocal? There is finally someone running for office who actually cares about the little guy. *raises hand* That's me.

A lot of his supporters don't know about politics. They just know that finally there is someone running for office who is interested in their well-being, their liberties... not some fat-cat with $100 million and a special interest group. He ignores special interest groups and is an honest man with integrity. Much more than I've seen from anyone else in the race.

For all his flaws, which are few, at the end of the day, he's honest -- you can see it -- and I think the American people are starved for that. Even those that you would consider less-than-conservative.

We're tired of puppets/figureheads. End of story.

I'll get back on this Axe.. I promise...

Had a very hectic day today and a meeting tonight.. After the meeting I'll address your points as best I can...

Semper

Now I have a few minutes before I have to get some sleep...



There is arguably no person on the planet that has a better proven record of managing a budget then Romney...



It is his definition of those traditional conditions that worry me...

Using that argument, Osama BenLaden wants traditional conditions as well.. I wont back him either...



It's the common human decency lacking here... The Myrtle Beach fiasco where they were shouting obscenities to drown out other candidates interviews. One they were a crowd of people with maybe 1/3 old enough to vote. Two, they even had an instance where some threw things.

The constant flooding of other peoples posts on ATS is a prime example... Instead of the intelligent and mature discourse about candidates that ATS is famous for, we get a flood of half formed, almost unintelligent posts about RP that have little to do with the thread...

Class is what I am talking about I guess... As a whole RP supporters lack it...



Check his voting record and do it without making excuses for the vote as so many have...

His votes trouble me... Nothing wrong with being a non-interventionists, I am somewhat one myself. But the radical way he justifies some votes as the Feds. staying out, is just plain silly and any one informed can see it if you look...

Also there is the issue of the war.... and 9/11

I frankly differ 180 degrees from him on both accounts...

I support the war, and I know what happened on 9/11... There was nothing like what he infers...

He has all but come out and blamed the US for what happened and what is happening... I can't stomach that.. That is why I am seldom on those threads.. I have trouble with people that will believe just anything that fits in their politically correct lives and do no research into the facts.. So I stay away from them...

So, there are just too many things about him and what he stands for that I can not support and have lived my life totally against...

Semper

Paul returns thousand to the treasury..again.

Do any other congressmen do such a thing?

The Treasury is certainly going to need it.
Bush just announced some sort of "bail out" plan for the country.
150 BILLION dollar injection to the economy. Now where is that money going to come from?

As far as Ron Paul supporters making noise, and saying BAD words,
I must say that I love it! The history of politics is filled with things much worse.

I'd rather hear a few bad words, than see more coffins come back from overseas. We are wasting real American Heroes in the middle east.
That, my friends, is worth a few curse words.

AMEN BROTHER !!!! .... PREACH THE WORD !!!!
it's time for the revolution at hand ......
btw .... you got any soap for my curse words awhile ago ??? LOL
and if I didn't say any .... I was shore thinkin'em

I was gonna join in the debate with axeman and semper about RP
but it looks as though axe don't need my help

but I would like to say that semper saying RP doesn't have class
and about us RP supporters being unintelligent:

I didn't know "class" was a pre-requisite for the white house and also
as far as my intelligence. Well I'm gonna shut-up before I show my
ignurunce

See?

Another perfect example of why the American Public can only get behind RP and his supporters by 5 or 6 %. Except of course on Myspace, Youtube or some other juvenile venue or some other "Straw" poll with no scientific validity what so ever...

Again, apparently my post was not read... Also I was not aware that Axe and I were in some form of competition. If so, I believe that on ATS, I am undefeated in the debate arena and apparently I "don't need any help" either.

This is NOT some competition. As much as you RP people would like for it to be. It is one person with one vote talking to others with one vote as well. My vote is not in competition with Axe or anyone else for that matter. Axe and I had found some common ground to debate an issue on it's intellectual merits. I was looking forward to that conversation and here along comes this...


This

Out right LIE, I said no such thing... Again, read the post...


Another LIE. Again I said no such thing... Read the posts and stop putting the words YOU need to support YOUR argument in.

If any others reading this have any doubts about what I am referring too, simply read my post and what "Simonsays" no pun intended, and you will easily come to understand my opinion on RP supporters in general..

Instead of correctly referencing my post, he either made assumptions or out right lied in order to prove his point. Thereby proving mine quite nicely...

As for the vulgar words, well I guess it's all a matter of taste. I used to speak like that I suppose, a long time ago when I was much younger and had less self control. I am curious as to what place it has in an intelligent discussion about the political future of the country?

Axe, if your out there, I tried, but as long as my posts are going to be lied about and statements "put in my mouth" that were never uttered, I fear there is little chance for us to debate this. At least on any level I am will to engage in.

Semper

As to the topic of this thread...

I will have to answer yes. Just look for yourself....

YouTube Link

WHAT


Opened News


New.AOL


Conservative Oasis

This just scratches the surface...

Semper

Let me say this before I call it a night...

In over 26 years of being politically active, I have voted about every way a man can in the country. I have however never campaigned against any candidate that was not a Democrat.

The responses on here, the lies and the reactions to logical discourse all make me want to go out, approach our committee chairpersons and begin an active campaign against Dr. Paul.

Having nothing particular against this candidate except a bifurcation of viewpoints, it is a shame that his supporters are such as to cause this kind of reaction.

In any event, this will all wait until tomorrow. I have to be back on the street at 6am...

Semper

reply to post by semperfortis

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OK. I will admit that I know little about Romney... as much as one can glean from seeing him in the debates and the typical media coverage. I know that he has been successful in the corporate world. I know he is a governor; and I know that he has many more views that I disagree with than Ron Paul. I tend to look at more subtle language than what is actually escaping people's mouths. I mean the words are important, but the delivery, tone, and body language are much more important to me as far as judging if someone is shooting me straight or not. I'll admit, I haven't been into politics heavily before this election. Never seen a reason to. I inherently knew that no one running had my best interest at heart, no matter the policies. I could tell they were phony; that they would -- and did -- say whatever the people wanted to hear rather than what they really felt or believed about a given issue.

Paul is the only one that stirkes me as honestly concerned. I mean he's been saying the same things for 30 years... and now we are seeng the results and consequences tha he predicted all this time. It's happening. Maybe you are well enough off that such trivial things as day-to-day expenses are not a worry for you; maybe you have enough dollars that the value doesn't really matter; you have the buying power you need. You have enough so that the taxes (the income tax in particular) don't affect your ability to properly care for those who depend on you.

You have already demonstrated that you are financially secure, and you have also said that you were once dirt poor. Well I have only seen one side of that spectrum; however, thankfully I have the skill set and ability to have remained employed throughout my teens and adult life, but it's only ever been just enough to get by. I now have a technical job that not everyone can do; I am not a laborer or an unskilled factory worker. However, I have no college education. I have no inheritnce or anything of the sort. I have no assets. I have no security beyond what my next paycheck and our struggling dollar can provide, and that's getting less and less by the day. Now, if I actually was allowed to keep what I have exchanged my time and my life for, being my wages, then I might be able to have something, anything, left over when all the bills and expenses are done to save or invest. Instead, I give the government an interest free loan every year that, in effect, complicates my ability to feed my family. I make too much money to qualify for the tax cuts for the poor that you found so humorous before, but that doesn't change the fact that I support a family of five on my income alone.

A sob story it's not; I love my life and we get along OK but you'll never catch me saying I wouldn't change it if I could. False hope or true, hope is something that is in short order these days, and I'll take it where I can get it.

Personally I believe it is true.



I fail to see how his definition of traditional is flawed. Honest money; small government that exists to pretect the citizens' rights and property; a non-interventionalist foreign policy; controlled immigration; legal taxation rather than illigal; states' rights; i could go on and on.

I don't know what America you grew up in, but these are the things I was tought define America. IMHO you don't get any more traditional than that.



Nor would I. But there is an all-important difference: Bin Laden's "traditional values" are traditional to a theocratic totalitarian State. Paul's "traditional values" are based on the founding document of the greatest country ever to exist on planet Earth; not formed based on religion, but based on secular policies laid down by some of the greatest thinkers of our age.

The American tradition is in black-and-white for all to see. It's called the Constitution... the document that all our service men and women, as well as out public servants, are sworn to protect and defend against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic.



I haven't seen any stories like that; at least people throwing things. Pardon me if I request a source for that claim.



LOL.

If you're any kind of ATSer, then you know that is just business as usual around here.

Don't believe me? Type the word "Freemason" and watch them converge.

Paul is bringing people out of the woodwork... all kinds. I mean damn, some of these people probably haven't seen the light of day in years... I mean he is the tin-foilers' hero! He wants to get rid of big government and that's what they're all afraid of! It's awesome!



I think you have based this conclusion on an unrepresentative group of RP supporters. For example, I went to a RP meetup group meeting tonight, and you couldn't ask for more class. We aren't freaks, we aren't nutters. We are people who believe in what RP says and we've been lied to, betrayed, and our leaders have run amok and made us the most hated country on the planet, when we should be the most respected and emulated country. We have become bullies, and the world has taken notice. So should we [you].



I have. And I'm sure if you are active in politics then you know that bills often include parts intended to pass "under the radar," and it happens often. RP actually takes the time to understand what he is voting for, how and if it applies to the Constitution, and if it violates others' civil rights and then votes according to his conscience. I couldn't ask anything more of my president than to know what he's signing and why, and to not be afraid to stand up for the people's rights, even when it is easier to do the wrong thing. I want a leader who actually has a conscience. I'll make no excuses, and I have no problem with his voting record. If you have a specific cite or issue you would like to discuss, I am more than happy to do so.



I'm not exactly sure what you are saying here. I will reserve comment and ask that you clarify this statement.



Ah yes. 9/11. Well that's a whole other can of worms and another debate, so I will tip-toe by that one. The war? It's been botched. We have to face it. I think he said it very well when he said at this point we are saving face, nothing more. We are best to admit as a nation that we were in the wrong and start taking steps to rectify the situation, not continue to aggravate it.

I am 110% behind Paul's foreign policy/national defense policy. 110%.



So, by your logic, I can just walk up and punch people in the face at random, and then when they hit me back or key my car... it's not my fault. Rrrrrrrrright...

Dude, we have been all up in their business, poking around in their back yards, using our CIA to manipulate their governments, playing the left hand against the right hand, and bombing or otherwise attacking thier soil for decades, and you believe there are no consequesnces for that.

Check.



That is such a contradictory statement that I don't even know where to begin. Hence, all I will say on the issue is we seem to differ on our ideas of what constitutes a "fact."



My friend, I can understand and respect that, but you are again contradicting yourself. You said in an earlier post that you would have considered him if it were not for his "rabid" supporters, yet here you claim that you do not support him on principle.

So which is it?

I'll get to the others tomorrow... It's late and the screen is fuzzy.

[edit on 1/18/08 by The Axeman]

Very well Said Axeman. Very nice.


I find it extremely ironic that a blogger WHINES about thin skinned Ron Paul supporters. Who exactly has the thin skin? And stop whining!
Then he goes on to call them names. so it's ok for him to sling names? But not others?

Then, there is the Hannity clip you linked.
Another Blogger, utilizing a right of free speech (and possibly the press).
Demonizing, and name calling, yet again.
Because Ron Paul supporters are exercising that same right.
Maybe it was a little over the top but, It needs to be over the top.
For them, there is ONE chance to get this right. Guys like Ron Paul this don't come along very often.

Huckabees, Romneys, McCains, and their ilk are a dime a dozen.
They are the "Johnny Bravos" of politics. (if the suit fits, run him!).

His participation is causing people to ask questions again.
I think it's great! And it's politically healthy.



Thanks for those, I needed more Irony in my diet.

I missed the post about how Ron Paul isn't conservative but I thought I would just throw this in. Someone to the extreme right of conservatism is called a "reactionary". These people actually do advocate change, but unlike liberals, they want things to change back to the way they used to be. So Ron Paul would actually be considered an ultra-conservative.

Source:dictionary.reference.com...

The defintion of reactionary I used was the "American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy". An extremely conservative person or position that not only resists change but seeks to return to the “good old days” of an earlier social order.

Axe,

GREAT post my friend....

I apologize for not responding to it sooner, but alas work is calling me I am sure you understand...

I will say this however before I get to the meat of your post; I do wish that I could get as passionate as you are about a candidate.

More later...

Spacedoubt, Your just being ornery...

Semper

does this line mean that you're saying RP supporters are
juvenile ??? since you say "or some other juvenile"

well I'll have to say that I am a 44 yr old man with 2 kids.
I don't know if that means I'm a juvenile or not. But I do
support RP. But I've always been a kid at heart. Does that
count toward the juvy accusation ??? LOL

Given the absolutely underwhelming support for Ron Paul in the primaries, I would doubt it. So... Why? Good question. Perhaps Saint Paul declared a fatwa calling primary voting "unconstitutional" just like he did with the 16th amendment.

NO... **sigh**

The quote is this..



VENUE

Sheesh....

Would you people PLEASE READ THE POSTS, and STOP putting words in peoples mouths that fit your agenda...

That's why I can't debate RP supporters. It's not enough that I try and simply explain my position, I have to defend my words taken out of context as well...Or spend my time questioning why an RP supporter is out right telling a lie about what I said...

Look you guys can have this thread and all the other RP threads, I'm done with what you all are calling "debate." It is not any kind I am used to, but if you are enjoying it, hey go for it...

I suddenly realized how foolish it is that I am debating, having my comments taken out of context or completely lied about, all over someone that has "zip" chance of the nomination.

Catch me on the Romney, Huckabee or McCain threads, but remember, leave the "out of context" and lies behind...

See ya

Semper

PS...

Axe, I salute your passion and commitment. I believe it will serve you well in other venues my friend...
Tell you what, come on over to the debate forum and have a go at it, I think you would do well..

S

"One they were a crowd of people with maybe 1/3 old enough to vote"

I know there is an age restriction on voting. But why do not people who can't legally vote due to age restrictions not have a right to have themselves heard?